I don't understand (an AB post)

[mhalachai]

This is a post about the Anita Blake fandom. Just so you know ahead of time.

I made the mistake (yes, I'm considering it a mistake now) to sign on for the new Laurell K. Hamilton forums as I wanted to track the fanfic thread (There is an empty forum on the boards entitled "fanfic" and I was ever-so-curious as to what that was all about). I then started reading some of the other posts, and quickly remebered why I'm not on any AB communities on LJ or the like.

Why does one spend so much time trashing a book that one hates? Villifying a) the characters, b) the author and c) the people who read the books? I myself have grown away from series in the past, when the author goes in a direction I find annoying or 'wrong' in my mind... I move on.

So, gentle reader, I ask you these simple questions:

1 - Do you understand the vitriol among the "fans" against people who still like the books?
2 - Do you get why anyone would spend the energy slagging a book they profess to hate?
3 - Is there any place on the net where a discussion on the books are presnet in a pleasant and construtive format? I know I may have asked this before, but I seem to have forgotten.

Thanks.

Comments

[mlady-rebecca.livejournal.com]

I agree with you. I don't understand why those who no longer like the direction the series has taken are still hanging around.

I've seen two LKH yahoo lists that are positive lists. At least those who chat most of the time are positive about the direction the series is going in -- MicahNimir-Raj (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MicahNimir-Raj/) (discussion and fanfic) and LKH_IncubusD (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LKH_IncubusD/) (just discussion)

[mhalachaiswords.livejournal.com]

Thanks for those links. I'll be sure to check them up when I get off work.

[cissasghost.livejournal.com]

Well, in all fairness, bashing stuff can be a lot of fun. I've been known to rent really bad cheesy action/horror flicks for the sole purpose of armchair quarterbacking and generally making fun of the characters' lack of survival skills and the plot's lack of scientific credibility. Don't ask me why this is fun, it just is.

Bashing stuff on forums devoted to said stuff, though, seems sorta petty and childish. I also get the idea (partly from our IM conversation of the other night) that you don't mean the above-described sorta throwing-popcorn-at-the-screen bashing, but actual vitriolic hatred type bashing. And that I don't get. When I genuinely can't stand something, I just avoid it. For example, romantic comedies. I don't rent romantic comedies and mock them, though there's often much to mock, 'cause I really genuinely just despise them. It wouldn't be fun.

So .. yeah, I dunno. Maybe the readers in question just really overidentified with the characters and felt betrayed when the plot went a way they didn't like. (Though that, IMO, is what fanfic is for - a sort of "better to light a candle than curse the darkness" approach to canon developments you dislike).

-Sonya

[mhalachaiswords.livejournal.com]

But it's not fun bashing, it's just trying to tear down everything to do with the series. When a simple question about Micah degenerates into people trying to figure out the most graphic way to kill him, it's not even worth my time anymore.

Maybe the readers in question just really overidentified with the characters and felt betrayed when the plot went a way they didn't like.

The books changed in NiC, really. That was in 2001. Frankly, it's time to move on.

[aurora-north.livejournal.com]

1 - No not really
2 - Uhmm... Can't say that I do
3 - Your jornal?

And hey, remeber thr golden days of yore when AB was pretty much a virgin?

Yeah I cant imagine it ether ;)

[faith1922.livejournal.com]

All the bashing gets a tad bit annoying with time, but sadly I don't know any places out there that do not like to bash everything to hell.

[mhalachaiswords.livejournal.com]

Yeah.

Well, I'm running a bash-free zone over here, so maybe we can discuss some AB stuff here. I dunno.

[goddessvicky.livejournal.com]

How wierd is it. I just registed on there last night. I was reading about Edward and how they were all angry and hoped he didn't come back into the series because they didn't want Anita to sleep with him becuase she's a "big slut" now.

::sigh::

I don't understand that. It's akin to people reading fan-fic and then just bashing the author. If you dont like it, don't read it.

But I totally agree. Its disrespectful to be on the author's ACTUAL forum and be saying that stuff. I'm kinda suprised they're letting it go on.

[mhalachaiswords.livejournal.com]

They've been saying that for a while now about Edward. Never mind that that's the last thing LKH would do. It's her main squick, I hear :P

its disrespectful to be on the author's ACTUAL forum and be saying that stuff. I'm kinda suprised they're letting it go on.

It used to be worse, which is why they took the boards down for so long. There's a note on the board FAQ that Laurell doesn't come to the boards because she's a technophobe; I figure that's an excuse for her not wanting to read all the trash people are talking about her (and she's a technophobe)

[watcher457.livejournal.com]

personally, i'm waiting for baited breath for Edward. he's my favorite and i'm terribly curious to see what will happen. it's like tossing oil on the raging fire that is anita. hm...

AB bashing

[(Anonymous)]

Questions one and two can be combined really.

It comes down to morality and sex.

Anita started out being a strong woman who didn't
have casual sex. It is stated over and over again in
the early books. I can see where the series gained fans
because of her moral code. She also was a "monster" killer.
This is/was her claim to fame. She also only killed in extreme
circumstances.

Slowly she was seduced and now is pretty much one of the monsters.
This is enough to bother people because it Scares them.
Could they be seduced by the dark too?
If she had stuck to her morals this would never have happened. That's Scary for some people.

She is able to kill and even torture much easier now and hell the woman has to have sex several times a day in order to feed and keep those tied to her metaphysically healthy. The zealots want to know what happened to their moral hero?

They can't let it go. The character they loved so much has let them down and they can't forgive her for it and they have to do something about it.
So they villify the characters, author and other fans. It has become a crusade for them right up there with religion, politics and abortion.

Viki

Re: AB bashing

[mhalachaiswords.livejournal.com]

It comes down to morality and sex.

Extremely good points. Thank you for posting.

Re: AB bashing

[watcher457.livejournal.com]

i disagree. not that people see it that way, because i'm sure they do, but i'm getting disappointed because of what has happened to the plots, not to anita, per se. it seems to me that the mystery and sensual, dangerous edge isn't there anymore. it has sex, but that's primarily all it's about. i think the plot gets lost in it.

that's why i'm disappointed. however, i do agree that people would look at it that way and that confuses me. if you're looking for morality and virtue, why are you trying to find it in a fantasy book series with werewolves and vampires and necromancers? bizarre.

Re: AB bashing

[mhalachaiswords.livejournal.com]

I think one of the things that is screwing up LKH's fanbase is she's basically changing genres. It used to be paranormal mysteries, and since NiC it's become paranormal romatice mysteries. (Well, romance or erotica, whatever you'd like).

I still like it b/c it's a growth of the characters and necessary to the plot choices that the author has made. I think that she's moving back to the mystery thing, she just needed to get over the hump that the ardeur introduced into the books.

Re: AB bashing

[watcher457.livejournal.com]

i hope so. i love the characters, but i'm despairing slightly. the mystery plots were part of what drew me in. i still like them, but my enthusiasm is wavering, which is part of the reason i'm waiting to see if edward returns soon. i think he's the perfect twist to shake things up. he hasn't been involved, and anita doesn't lust after him, so the ardeur means nothing. he'd be like a bucket of ice water to the entire thing.

[taligator.livejournal.com]

I'd have to say that I don't mind a good bash fest every so often but most of these people are still routinely bashing Narcissus in Chains which was released in 2001!

I'd have to agree with the anon post below. These books scare people because she's evolved in a way that is too hard to swallow for a lot of people.

I consider myself a fairly liberal person and some of the concepts in the later books throw me initially (though I love them) but I can't imagine what a person (no offense to anyone from the Midwest) from small town midwest thinks when they read Nathanial taking Anita when he's half changed. It's just delicious to me because she's pushing buttons and testing people to see if they can handle what they may not understand but it's a lot to take in!

This is not your regular Harlequin book! :)

1) I don't get why people who claim to like the books spend so much time railing against them. I can barely stand reading some of the threads on that group how do these people live through each day reading/writing/venting? EVERY SINGLE DAY! All I have to say is these people must be REALLY angry people.

2) I think it makes peope feel self-righteous to rail against things that the general populace would dislike. It makes them feel like "good" people. I don't honestly think it's for anything other than "hey look at me I'm such a good person and these books are naughty".

3) I tend to avoid any place that discusses the stories (Other than your LJ and a few others) because I'm not that emotional about the books. I adore them and have read and re-read them many times but I don't understand the needs of most to bash on characters they don't like (usually Micah), whine about characters they feel are being treated unfair (always Richard), Anita's lack of morals, what an evil bastard JC is, and so on.

I want to discuss how she pushes buttons, why she does it, the evolution of the individual characters and development (or lack of) in others. I don't want to do surface talk and that seems to be all that really exists. There are a few threads on the LKH forum which get me going (in a good way) and talk about the direction of the story and how the pieces fit together. It's good talk - until someone ruins it. :)

If you want a place where constructive discussions can be held on the AB books, you might consider starting your own and clearly outlining the rules of the forum. I would certainly join. :)

The fanfic forum on LKH's board is generally meant for one post that tells you fanfic is not allowed on the forum and you can't rec it either. It's worded in such a way that, to me, says if you want to write it, cool but don't tell anyone. ;)

[mlady-rebecca.livejournal.com]

I think it makes peope feel self-righteous to rail against things that the general populace would dislike. It makes them feel like "good" people. I don't honestly think it's for anything other than "hey look at me I'm such a good person and these books are naughty".

I can understand that attitude, in general, not that I support or like it. But I don't see where a person like that would ever be drawn into a series like "Anita Blake" in the first place. Did they put this filter over Anita and re-imagine her as some holy crusader ridding the world of the "monsters"? An illusion like that would only stretch to "Circus of the Damned" at the latest.

[taligator.livejournal.com]

Oh they always justify their reading by saying that "she is Catholic and she's a good person inside, she's just being led astray". ;)

I certainly don't support their self-righteousness either but I can see where they come from.

For example, there is this website that allows people to put comments about their products up online. They have two categories, negative and positive and the negative one is just bursting with good cheer. It has comments like, "these publishers should all get cancer and die in agony", "you all will burn in hell and I hope it hurts", "you are evil satanic people and may God cause you and all your friends and family pain". It's really obnoxious but these people "fell" for their marketing in the first place and spend hundreds of dollars on their books. Yet if you read even more of these you'll see, "I refuse to even let people see that I own this book. I'm so ashamed", "I would burn this book if I could". But none of them get rid of the books. They keep them and my guess re-read them over and over to remind themselves of what "good" people they are for not buying into it. *shrug* People are weird creatures. They justify it by saying they need to be open to the world around them to educate others against wrong doing. But they avidly and voraciously read and re-read this "satantic crap" and rail against it. ;)

Thing about Anita is that a lot of the bashers are huge Richard fans and even if he was technically a monster, he was human and real and he was a poor boy who got dealt a bad hand of cards. I think they kept reading because they view (or viewed) Richard as a knight in shining armor. That one day he would rescue the misguided Anita from the awful monsters. He didn't choose to be a monster and he didn't participate in their monsterly acts so he was redeemed in some ways.

I'd also liken the AB books to car wrecks .. you can't help but gawk when you come across them. Morbid fascination.

A lot of people who dislike the AB books for the sex don't mind it in the Merry Gentry books because she started out that way. She was a sexual creature from the start.

[sabriel-0405.livejournal.com]

I think the anonymous post captured much of the issue. It scares people that Anita could have changed so much. Though, honestly, what happened was obvious from Guilty Pleasures. Not necessarily the extent, but for me, the sexual tension was taut in the first book. By the time I finished Killing Dance, it was like a storm had broken and I could breathe again.

The people who don't understand the direction of the books, also think that Anita was happy in the early books and the truth was she was miserable. She had a few close girlfriends but she was lonely and angry with everyone and everything. When baiting your boss is the highlight of the day, you don't really have a life. She saw death and brutality thanks to her police consultanting role. And then she fell in with the monsters and discovered....

They don't treat her like a freak. They aren't afraid of her. (Well, they are but that's because if she says she'll kill them, she will.) They welcome her.

As to the vitriol, I think it goes back to the fact that Laurell's writing sucks you in. I don't understand why anyone would waste any time writing about a book they don't like. But I understand the strong reactions the series invokes. Mlady_rebecca gave you the two best yahoo groups for upbeat, positive discussions. Please join us!

I don't know what I will do if and when this obsession ever wears off. I read each new books with apprehension. What if I don't like it? (Hasn't even come close to happening. Hyperventilation? That has come close to happening. Several times. And people wonder why Anita has to learn how to breathe!)

But your comment is why I won't join the new board. I read the rules and then I read what my flist was saying and I don't have the energy to get upset.

I am sure you know that Laurell's stance on Fanfic is that it isn't allowed because her attorney's can't agree on the violation of copyright. She's basically under a don't ask/don't tell attitude. She did request that fanfic be removed from fanfiction.net but I think that's because it was the biggest publicly recognized site. And she doesn't want to be accused of plagarism. I laugh because of the similarities in concept to the first 2 chapters in DM and Consequences. But then, most bad fanfic writers don't understand that most ideas are not that unique. It is the execution of them that is.

I'm long-winded tonight.

[mhalachaiswords.livejournal.com]

The people who don't understand the direction of the books, also think that Anita was happy in the early books and the truth was she was miserable. She had a few close girlfriends but she was lonely and angry with everyone and everything. When baiting your boss is the highlight of the day, you don't really have a life. She saw death and brutality thanks to her police consultanting role. And then she fell in with the monsters and discovered.... They don't treat her like a freak. They aren't afraid of her. (Well, they are but that's because if she says she'll kill them, she will.) They welcome her.

I think this is the key point to the entire series (or maybe I'm getting maudlin in my old age). In the series, Anita began thinking that monsters are monsters and there is no saving them, only killing them. Through her time with the monsters, becoming their friends, their protector, she realizes that what they *are* isn't what makes them a monster, it's what they choose to do.

And when Anita chooses to do that, by letting the zombies kill the Senora, for example, or chopping on that guy in Blue Moon, she breaks down another barrier. Yes, she did some vile, horrible things. Why? What was the purpose in her sins? Do her reasons make her less of a monster than others?

But your comment is why I won't join the new board. I read the rules and then I read what my flist was saying and I don't have the energy to get upset.

That's the vicious circle. The people who really, really like the books will not go there, because of all the negative energy. I remember the first time I went to the old board, soon after I'd read most of the books. I was really jazzed about the books, seeing new areas for them to go, to talk about... and then to read that stuff was like a gut punch. I eventually got over it, but to see that stuff was really hard.

And since the people who really enjoy the books will shy away (and I've already seen one person say 'look, this negative reception I got for asking a simple question about Micah is so not worth it, I'm out of here') the place will continue to remain a negative space.

I am sure you know that Laurell's stance on Fanfic

I do know, but then why oh why is there a forum on that bloody board entitled "Fanfic"? No posts, nada. So very confusing!

But then, most bad fanfic writers don't understand that most ideas are not that unique. It is the execution of them that is.

I work in the newspaper business. We all know that there are no new stories, only new angles :)

[crasi.livejournal.com]

Anonymous hit it right on the nose. I could understand the vitrol if the changes in the character were a recent thing, but it's been about 4 years. Frustration over wasted time and money should have ended by now. Personally, I haven't read anything by LKH since NIC came out. I bought NIC in hardcover, and could not force myself to finish. My sole exposure to the series is the crossover fiction that it has inspired.

[mhalachaiswords.livejournal.com]

Anita Blake crossover fic? I think I've heard something about that... :P

Thanks for commenting.

[watcher457.livejournal.com]

hello. i've recently been introduced to your story, inevitable, and i fell in love, so i'm avidly waiting for the next part, lol. in response to your questions:

1 - Do you understand the vitriol among the "fans" against people who still like the books?

I can understand being confused. I would want to see what the appeal was still (i'm personally getting disappointed, but i still read them), but there is no reason to raise hackles against someone for liking the books. the characters are still there and they are still wonderful. besides, it's no one's right to slander someone for their tastes.

2 - Do you get why anyone would spend the energy slagging a book they profess to hate?

it's one thing to discuss why you are losing interest in a series, but there is such a thing as running it into the ground. they have no life. *shrugs*

3 - Is there any place on the net where a discussion on the books are presnet in a pleasant and construtive format? I know I may have asked this before, but I seem to have forgotten.

i don't know. i wish i could help out. i'd like to check out such a place myself.

[mhalachaiswords.livejournal.com]

but there is no reason to raise hackles against someone for liking the books

Exactly. I think this is what confuses me the most, the attacks on people who express a like for the books and for the characters.

When I get a bunch of positive AB places, I'll post them :)

[waterfall8484]

I don't think I'll ever understand the AB fandom...

As for your questions:
1) No
2) No
3) I haven't heard of anywhere, but please let me know if you find something...

CoS Forums

[(Anonymous)]

Hi,

I don't know if you've heard of CoS Forums (http://www.cosforums.com), but I started a thread on it discussing Anita Blake. It doesn't have many members, but it's bash-free mostly from the people who participate often. Once in a while a person comes along and says they don't like it, but then they never come back, so it's just us fans that stay on! Check it out if you want...

P.S. I really like your fics and can't wait to read more of Inevitable!